Arthur Smilios - Gorilla Biscuits, CIV

Arthur playing with CIV, Photo: Traci McMahon

This is part of an ongoing piece where we asked various people from bands over the years what they recall as the most memorable show they ever played (or attended, if they were never in a band), and why. What is posted here is only a sliver of what is to come, so be sure to check back. -DCXX

Wow, my answer is probably influenced by the fact that it was more recent, but I'd have to say the CBGB benefit in August, 2005. First, I never would have believed I'd ever share a stage with those four guys again. That we were doing something on behalf of a place where I'd spent the better part of my adolescence/young adulthood, whose closure was imminent certainly added to the emotion. It was a special confluence of events that made it so memorable.

I also look fondly on the second Warped Tour, with Rocket From the Crypt...amazing band and a great group of people.

Any of the early shows with Youth of Today (one of the best bands, ever) would also qualify, as well as the Quicksand/CIV tour in late '95.

Drew Beat - BOLD Memories Vol.III

BOLD last 7" photo shoot, photo courtesy of Matt Warnke

We interviewed Drew BOLD a few years back and got some great material out of him. Here is a quick snippet from that interview, expect much more from time to time in the future.  -DCXX

The hardcore thing early on wasn't really a part of it for us in Crippled Youth. It was more just being crazy and punk. It wasn't the youth crew thing that would come later, we weren't in that mode yet. The aesthetic was more just about just having fun and writing crazy shit and being punked out and not caring and playing fast. We had fucked up hair and clothes, and I still have fucked up hair. But we were, for lack of a better term, bold about it as young kids in junior high. People didn't like that.

Even the early Crippled Youth lyrics for the songs on the EP at first were different, just funny and fucked up. I think "Walk Tall, Walk Straight" was called "Desperate For Beer," you know? So, a lot of the Connecticut people early on that saw us knew us got bummed out when we got "brainwashed" or whatever by YOT and aligned more with the youth crew thing and with straight edge.

But from there we definitely aligned with Youth Of Today, there was just so much momentum with what they were doing, and we were able to hop in on that with them. From there it was really like the whole youth crew thing. There was a look, and a vibe, and an attitude, right down to the style of dress with hooded sweatshirts, army pants, and high tops. It was a real combination of everything. And we felt at home with that. It just all came together, the youth crew. And that was in Connecticut, it was before we really shifted towards New York and the city. We were really able to piss off enough people in Connecticut to kind of get run out of there. So once John and Ray moved to NY, we kinda followed in tow...now we had a place to really play out and get to on the weekends.

Rival Schools 2008

I jacked this from YouTube, but for those that might be curious about what's going on with Rival Schools, here's the word from Wally. -DCXX

JUDGE / November 25th 1988 / The Anthrax / Norwalk CT.

Once again, Cliff hits us up with another killer set. And yes, it's another Judge set, this time from the Alone In A Crowd show. Mike in a Montville hat with some great stage banter, an X'ed up Jimmy Yu slammin' hard on Alex Pain's bass, Porcell in a BOLD shirt throwin' the fist, a crowd climbing Jules and stage diving by the Chain Of Strength guys... priceless.

Sorry to anyone who's not a Judge fan, because god knows we've been throwing Judge at you on a regular basis. Actually, no, we're not sorry, if you don't like Judge you probably wouldn't like this page and we probably wouldn't like you. We're joking... of course. -DCXX

Jimmy Yu - Part V

Judge at CBGB. Photo: Boiling Point

Jimmy Yu talks on Judge, Buddhism and life after hardcore. Part VI, the final piece from this interview coming soon. If you've missed anything, be sure to check out the previous interview entries. -DCXX

We recorded every Judge practice, because we always practiced at the same place, and they had a huge PA mixing board. This was the same place we practiced for DBD. But so many of those Judge practices run together. I don't remember what was what, but so many were like real recordings, hundreds, with good levels and sound. But we didn't see it as a precious recording, so we would copy over previous recordings, and we were so poor that we would even just take shitty actual tapes, like real band's tapes, and put scotch tape over the little squares on the top and record like that. I wish we hung onto those. They could be anywhere, in the garbage somewhere. We recorded with Luke, and with Sammy. But that's how we learned our songs, every now song, we learned it by recording it. We would be like, "What did we just play?! That was great!" And we would go back and listen to it. There was some great stuff on those tapes.

I really don't remember recording the Chung King record, it just all runs together. There were so many rehearsals and recordings and it just is buried in memories. There is one time I remember recording and I think maybe that was the Chung King recording, but I just can't remember. I kept in touch enough to know about that record coming out, even though I was out of Judge by that point. It was a big deal to do that record, even if I don't remember it, doing an LP was still a big deal. I mean DBD went on for years and we never got a real demo out of it. Judge did the EP and then the LP pretty quickly, it was still a big deal. I heard about it when it came out, but I never got a copy.

I can see the transition now between the early Judge songs and the later songs, there was some progression. But at the time, they just seemed a little bit heavier with a little metal influence, and some slower tempos. But when we wrote those songs originally, the solos weren't there. I don't think metal influences were conscious, maybe to Porcell but I don't think to me and Mike. Back then it was just like, "Hey look at this new tune I have!" It wasn't like, "I wrote this song, it is a big change, it is a metal song, that's what we should make it sound like!" But we had learned how to play, I think we all learned how to really play. Sammy became a really, really great drummer, and Porcell really knew how to play guitar. We got tight, and heavy. Mike was always very smart and musical, but the way he sang those songs, that didn't just happen. He knew how to work in his influences and various genres, that was just his ingenuity. He was and is such a talented guy.

During Judge, I was still into going to shows and the bands that were around. I had been around for 7 or 8 years, and it was different. I wasn't 13 years old, and it wasn't new and scary. For me, it was just, "Yeah, I'm playing bass in Judge." I was getting into Buddhism, and trying to get away from a violent past. But when we played, I loved it. It wasn't boring! I always loved the moshing, the dancing, people stage diving and going off. It was a totally different era, the bands from 1983 were either broken up or much different by the time Judge was going. But I still liked a lot of the bands that were new and around. I was excited to see a lot of bands, even in Judge, and it was the same for Mike.

I think the people that say looking back, "Yeah, I wasn't really into those bands then, I was into the earlier bands before them," I think they are coming at it from a retrospective macro view. But at the time, when they were on the ground, they weren't thinking like that. They were a part of it and into it, even if now they try to deny it. Maybe now they want to look back and categorize eras and what they liked more or less, and they want to say, "I liked the earlier bands more, I didn't like the later bands." But I saw you there, on the ground, with these bands, being into it!

People like to create their own narratives and glorify their own era, and they want to pick and choose what to reminisce about. And this applies to those people who want to talk about their roles in early NYHC, and the formation and development of it, and how it is not the same as what came later on. They make it sound like it didn't happen or it was significant. It's the same as when you talk to an old man and he is like, "OHH back when I was young it was like this and I used to this! It's not the same anymore!" It's the same thing. So take it with a grain of salt.

The boundaries between eras in hardcore, and types of bands and all that, maybe now it is really distinct, but it wasn't back then. Not to me. Was I stage diving to Bad Brains in 1983? YES! Was I stage diving to Bold or other bands in 1988? YES! To me, it was all the same thing, and it was great. Ok, I mean the early Bad Brains shows were a totally different level, but it was all a part of the same thing. Even later era Bad Brains, when there was a whole set of reggae, you waited that whole set for the one hardcore song, because that was great, we were satisfied with just that. And even the reggae songs, HR was still kinda crazy and delirious looking, falling down and stuff, he wasn't laid back.

I don't try to diss the newer bands that are still going. I think that's great, keep on going, keep it alive. As long as you approach it genuinely and don't try to play out some fantasy act from the past. Move forward.

Even before Judge I had started to get into Buddhism. In 1987, I went to the School Of Visual Arts in NYC right after high school to start my freshman year of college. I was at SVA until 1991. Doing abstract expressionism for inspiration, I thought maybe I would look to Buddhism for inspiration. All of my friends were either into Hare Krishna, or Buddhism. So I thought, Ok, Buddhism. And then I really got into it.


Jimmy at his house, displaying a Chung King. Photo: Tim DCXX

I started to back out of hardcore while I was living above the temple, and doing Zen retreats. I started to fade out, in terms of going to shows, while Judge was continuing. I was even seeing Mike less and less because I was always in the city and he was always back in New Jersey. I had even already gotten out of skateboarding. Earlier on, Howard Horowitz and I had built a half pipe while I was still in Montville. But I broke my ankle, so I couldn't really do a lot of the tricks I used to do, and I got out of skateboarding too.

Even when I was living above the temple, Mike and those guys would stop by to pick me up when driving here on the way to the studio. They didn't have the number because I wasn't allowed to give it away. Even if they got someone on the phone, nobody spoke English. So they would come to the door, and be like explaining it to these monks, trying to act it out, you know like "We are looking for Jimmy, short hair, plays guitar, lives here, crazy?" And then the monks would figure it out and go upstairs and get me.

The guys in the band could see me drifting away. I remember they wanted to go on tour, and I couldn't do that. I was in school, and in the summer I was doing volunteer work and writing for Chan magazine. So I couldn't do that. It was a gradual thing, I think we didn't practice for a while, and they started practicing without me. It wasn't a difficult break, we were still friends. But I was talking to Mike about this yesterday, and I think it was like, "Yeah, I guess it's better if Jimmy left, so we can get someone steady." I can't remember my last show with the band, maybe a show at The Anthrax?

With Buddhism, I was lead to it by all the things I was into before it. That is a retrospective view now, I mean back then, I was just bumping from one thing to the next blindly. My parents wanted me to go to college. For me, it was either music or art. As a boy, I did art all the time. In fact, I forgot to mention this, but I drew a lot of NYHC flyers. The AF guys, those guys couldn't draw. So they would give me words and dates. If you see any skinhead moshing, on an AF or DBD flyer, I did it. Me and this other kid Tim Casinda, this skater kid, we do all those flyers. Not many people could draw that stuff, moshing half skinhead half monsters and everything. So yeah, I wanted to do art.

I remember thinking, if I go to school for music instead of art, I have to learn classical music, I have to learn music theory. Ahh, forget that. Art is easier, I can just draw. So I got into illustration. During that phase, Judge characterized me so much. As I got into art more, I really looked into the meaning, and the meaning of expressing yourself through art. Then I got into abstract art, which was totally impractical. This was kinda rare for a Chinese kid to not major in something practical like economics, or engineering, or medicine, or law. This lead into Buddhism, which weighed so much on meaning and expression. It helped me figure out so much about myself…why was I an outcast? Why was I different from other people? And I still am like that. If people go this way, I go the other way. I guess it is in my genes, it has passed on to my daughter.

So with abstract art, you had to draw inspiration from somewhere. People were drawing inspiration from their own western abstract art history, and I just thought, "I don't want to do that." That was just reproducing stuff and spitting it out. So I looked to ancient Chinese landscape paintings. I found in this painting, within this vacant vast empty space, there was this tiny little boat painted. That showed the interplay between emptiness and the little boat that was formed by just a few brush strokes.

That lead me into minimalism, and how just a few brush strokes could express so much. I found out that those paintings from 12th century China were influenced by Zen. So I'm thinking, "Wow, yeah, I remember that stuff, my Mom is into Zen." So I run downstairs to ask these Buddhist monks, they are right downstairs, I need to find out! So I started talking to them a lot, reading a lot, and I felt like I found something. All my life I had been headed south, and then right there, I found out, oh my God, north is the other way! And right away, I turned around and started running north, as fast as I could.

Underdog / July 9th 1989 / The Anthrax / Norwalk CT.

Cliff, the Anthrax's resident videographer, brings us yet another great video. This time it's Underdog from the Aaron Straw benefit show. Back to back... - DCXX

Joe Nelson - Standing Hard, Hard Stance

Mark "Helmet" Hayworth and Zach De La Rocha at their senior prom. Photo courtesy of Joe Nelson

Orange County Sloth Crew ringleader Joe Nelson, with more tales from the west coast...

-DCXX

I'm going to talk about Hard Stance a little too.... Here's one story I thought of. There's some pretty funny Hard Stance party stories too that I'll throw at you.

But first, Zach De La Rocha got all the hardcore kids in the area the greatest job ever during the spring of 1988. Zach had found this place called measure A, which was some Orange County land development measure on the ballot that year. It had to be backed by big business because they had money to burn. We were the perfect kids to burn it for them too. I think we were all getting $8 an hour which was great money for a senior in High School, which we all were.

We would all meet at the Head Quarters at 3:00 pm. They would then divide us into groups of 4. We were like 20 kids strong too, so we'd have 5 groups. Then we were all supposed to go flyer different precincts in O.C. with their pamphlets or whatever. Instead of doing that we'd all just go to the mall, the movies, the arcade, Hard Stance practice, play baseball, or basketball, go skate somewhere, and when the water was warm we'd surf. We'd do pretty much everything and anything besides that actual job. Then at 7:00 we'd return to the HQ, and clock out.

It lasted for 4 months. The genius of it was it provided us all the opportunity to hang out 4 - 5 days a week together, and do rad stuff we'd never have done without the job. Without the job we'd have probably all been at home by ourselves doing whatever, instead we basically got paid to fuck around with each other every day after school. They got wise to us acouple times, but we were always able to con our way out of it. The good news for them was the measure passed too.

Ajay Enuf - New Jersey's Hardest

Ajay regulates the crowd during Bold's set while Jules comes back to stage from a dive. Photo: Ken Salerno

The Enuf demo...now here is a recording that does not get discussed as much as it should. Hard, energetic straight edge hardcore that sounds much more NY than it does NJ. Angry straight edge lyrics? Check. Well played mosh breaks? Check. Skating references? Check. The package is complete. Do you think that when pimple faced nerds are singing along to Lifetime they have any idea that Ari Katz was once behind the drumkit busting out the beat to "Suckah Mosh?" No, they don't.

I wasn't there to witness just how unfortunately short-lived this great band was, but when they split, it surely was the premature end to a career for a great singer and frontman. Luckily we were able to track Ajay down and get as much info as possible out of him. Expect multiple segments for us to get through this great interview. Thanks to Dan Cav. "Kick it Fern"...

-Gordo DCXX

Usually when Gordo takes the time to write his own introduction to an interview, I tend to leave it at that. When it comes to Enuf, I felt the need to chime in.

I remember seeing these guys for the first and only time at Rutgers' Scott Hall . It was the monumental BOLD / Vision / Life's Blood show, October 29th 1988. Coming to this show I had never heard of Enuf and had only known them to be the opening band for this particular show. When I got into the show and saw Enuf take the stage, I climbed up on top of a class room seat, situated myself with my camera and prepared to snap off a few photos. Instead, from the first note on, I stood there with my jaw hitting the floor. Enuf took me by surprise and clearly blew the doors off Scott Hall. To put it lightly, I was impressed.

One thing I will never forget about Enuf's set that night, aside from how incredible they were, was Ajay's introduction of a certain friend. Jules from Side By Side was hanging out on stage and for the first time, Ajay introduced Jules and announced how Jules was starting a new band called Alone In A Crowd. Ajay's description of Alone In A Crowd was, "Negative Approach mixed with Last Rights." Fuck.

Enuf went on to become one of my personal favorite New Jersey Hardcore bands ever. With the combination of that Scott Hall live set and the demo, they secured a spot right up there with Vision, Turning Point and Release. At one point there was even talk that I was going to get a hand in releasing an Enuf 7" on Common Sense Records, which was going to be an offshoot of Common Sense Fanzine that Tony Rettman and I did. Unfortunately Enuf broke up before any 7" was ever recorded.

To say that I was psyched to track down Ajay and get this interview would be an understatement.

-Tim DCXX

When did you get into hardcore and how did you find your way into it? What about straight edge? Where had you grown up, and what typeof things in your youth pushed you into the direction of skating, hardcore, and straight edge? Most influential bands or records?

I got into hardcore music kind of as a fluke really. I had been working since the age of 15 because my Dad told me that if I wanted anything that I would have to work and buy it for myself to learn the value of money. Later on I worked at a skate/surf shop (I forget the name) in Woodbridge mall. I used to work there with Rodney who owned Shut Skates and Zoo York.

Anyway, I remember I bought a Walkman called the Mura Hi Stepper. I remember it like it was yesterday, the sound was amazing and I remember flipping the radio stations. I remember that I used to listen to a station called WHBI, who had on the world famous Supreme Team show and WKTU, WBLS and KISS FM, all of them playing rap with DJ's like Red Alert, Mr. Magic, Clark Kent...it was so dope.

One day I started flipping in the 80s on the FM dial and I heard this crazy music. It was the B-52's, then the Dead Kennedys. I remember that I listened to that station after that all the time. It was WRSU, Rutgers' radio station. I used to also listen to WKCR, Columbia University's station, when they had their punk show on. That was around 1984-1985.

I had come from Trinidad when I was younger and had never fit in. I didn't have a girlfriend, I wasn't liked because people said I talked funny and I didn't really have friends. I didn't drink or do drugs because I had a super strict upbringing, so I just never got into that. I started skating soon after I got the job working at the skate shop. When I was skating in 1986 it was cool, just a bunch of guys that just wanted to skate and have fun. Never any pressure to drink or anything like that. I never did it. That's when and where I started to get my friend base and also just where I started to feel like I was coming into my own.

I was living in Edison, NJ at the time. I remember that when I moved close to Middlesex County College, I had this young kid that I used to skate with named Noah Carvallho, rest in peace. He and I used to hang hard. His parents were hippies and he used to come by the house and we used to skate. I was like 17 or 18 and he was like 10. Coolest kid, he died of cancer. We used to listen to Black Flag, Dead Kennedys, Anthrax, Corrosion Of Conformity, 7 Seconds, Beastie Boys, Bad Brains, Fishbone, etc.

The bands that really kicked it over the edge for me though were probably Suicidal Tendencies and the Dead Kennedys, Fishbone and the Bad Brains. "Pay To Cum" in some crazy movie - Repo Man, was such a dope movie, and Jello Biafra's voice to me was so ill. How could you not dig the music during this time?


Ajay stares down a WP skin. Photo: Ken Salerno

The New Jersey scene began to explode by 1987-1988 with young hardcore bands, and I am sure you were in the middle of it. What were some memorable shows from that time period, who were your favoritebands, and how do you remember that era (specifically NJ)?

The most memorable show that I had seen during the late 80s had to have been the Youth Of Today show at Middlesex County College in 1987. I was going to school there at the time and I remember my man Rich Taglieri told me to come check the show. Yo, it was so ill. I forget who else played, but here was this group of guys that had the same ideals that I had, I was like "what is this?"

Back in that time there were only a few bands from Jersey doing anything. I remember Ped, September Violence, Thanatos, Shades Apart and Vision doing shows in Scott Hall and I also remember them playing I think at Middlesex County College. I remember seeing those bands and thinking that I wanted to do a band too. Especially also because Vision was also a Straight Edge band, I was like "I want to do this."

One of the coolest shows that I was at was one that Dave from Vision threw in the basement of his house. His parents were totally cool and I remember that he had a whole crew of hot girls that used to be band groupies that guys used to drool over, so funny. One of my favorite shows during that time had to have been Fishbone at City Gardens, too. I was an official Fishbone freak, I tried to go to all their local shows in the tri-state area. Here was an all black band of "misfits," which is what I likened myself to at that time, and they were crushing it. They played a big part in me wanting to do the band for sure.

I remember that era as just being the time that we were living in, we didn't think that we were in what is known by many as the best years of hardcore. For us, we didn't think anything else except that we had to get money to get to the next show, it was all about the "now." Looking back at it now, that time was truly amazing.


[TO BE CONTINUED]

Photographer Spotlight: Dave Sine

Against The Wall / Spanky's / 1990

Dave is one of the great photographers to come out of that late 80's Southern California hardcore scene. Starting out with his own fanzine On Line, then on to Tidbit Fanzine, then on to numerous records, Dave's photography has really gotten around. More to come. -DCXX


Insight / Spanky's / 1990


Chain Of Strength / Spanky's / 1989


Insted / The Country Club / 1989

Jason Peterson - The Arizona Straight Edge / Wind Of Change Part II

Wind Of Change photo shot by a friend that happened to work in a photography studio. Courtesy of Jason XXX

Jason Peterson continues to school us on the Arizona Straight Edge scene of the late 80s, playing in Wind Of Change, and where he went from there. Let's hope Jason contributes more in the future.

-Gordo DCXX

Wind Of Change was me, Jim Wall, John Wall, Alex, and Tim on drums. Eric Astor and then Brian Brown would later replace Tim. We released our first EP "Promise Kept" on Step Forward. Wind Of Change blew up at this point, and we played every AZ show and out of town weekend shows for the next two years, Our second EP, "Rain," was released on our own label for a summer tour in 1989. I put every piece of HC energy I had into booking the first tour. We had lists and lists of kids around the country who helped set up the shows. Our first show was in Salt Lake with Insight. We played Green Bay with Verbal Assault and a bunch of east coast show with GB and Insted. We played CB's with Bl'ast!, Insted and American Standard. We played our last show of the tour in Roanoke, VA. We had some great shows and some bad shows.

WOC was always a contrast because half of the band was straight edge and the other half was not, half of us loved NYHC and the other half loved the DC sound. It was a constant struggle to find our balance and for a little while we did. WOC was made up of our strong personalities and diverse tastes. At the end of that tour I had nothing left. I remember sitting on my sister's front lawn with a box of left over t-shirts and thinking, "now what?" But I had done what I wanted to do. I got in a van with my seven best friends and played 38 shows around the country. We had one last show in LA with YOT and every band of the time, but called it quits a week before the show. Out of the ashes of Wind Of Change came some great bands: Fuse, Dodge, Hoover, Kerosene 454 and Samuel. A German label released all of the eps and demo on a lp in 1990.

What was your involvement with Step Forward zine/records?

Eric Astor was an amazing kid who started coming to shows in '87. He had so much energy and a business like passion for HC. Step Forward was his label that materialized from his zine, Silent Minority. He put out the Y.U.C livetape and the first Wind Of Change EP. I helped Eric with much of his graphic design work in the early days. We designed Drug Free Youth shirts in his parents kitchen by eye matching the screens and curing the ink in the oven. Those shirts became a staple for the AZ scene. Every band that came to town left with arms full. We also screened the door on the Insted van as they left for their first US tour.

I designed most of the flyers for the shows we put on at the time. I found I had a deep love and talent for graphic design. I would even end up re-designing, laying out and distributing the flyers for shows we had nothing to do with. I remember one night Eric and I broke into the ASU business lab with a plot to steal a photocopier, so we didn't have to pay for copies any more. We just walked into a classroom where students were working and said we had to fix the machine and rolled it down the hall. We got it out of the building but left it sitting in the middle of campus when the rental cops spotted us.

I ended up falling out with Astor over bullshit money issues, I was never comfortable making a dime off of HC.


Wind Of Change at CBGB, photo courtesy of Jason XXX

People on the west coast from the late 80s scene talk about seeing Youth of Today on their early tours and just knowing they had to do a band and try to emulate that energy. Was that the case for you and your scene?

We met Ray and Porcell when they first toured (in a station wagon) the westcoast with 7 Seconds. They played the Electric Rhino with Kevin Seconds on drums. They needed a place to crash so we snuck Youth of Today into Palmer's walk-in closet without this parents knowing. The next day we all skated in Tempe. This was pre-veggie days for YOT and I remember giving them shit for eating a slice of pepperoni pizza. They had great stories about the NYC scene. We got so amped when Ray told us about starting a record label. Meeting them gave us the energy to kick our scene in the ass.

On that note, it seems from the impression I get, that bands likeYOT, BOLD, and GB became friends with your crew. Any good stories of tour stops, travel together, shows, hanging etc. with those guys?

Youth Crew stories:

#1

Youth Under Control played with YOT in '87 at a dance club called Prisms. At the time AZ had a major skinhead problem. Most of the shows at Prisms ended in fights with the skins. Many times the bouncers tried to protect us from the waiting skins and escort us to our cars. It got so bad the Victor bros (promoters who ran Placebo records) didn't let skins into shows anymore.

During the YOT set one of the skins kicked my 13-year-old neighbor in the head. Ray stopped playing and called the skin out then Ritchie jumped off stage and got into the leader skin's face. They went back and forth then decided to throw down behind the local McDonald's at 11. I remember being in the van with all those guys; Ritchie and Porcell were going nuts. Everyone was screaming, we were so amped up. We got to the McDonald's and waited at least an hour but the skins never showed up. It was a victory none-the-less. The skins got revenge about a week later by breaking my friend's arm with a bat.

#2

YOT came back in the summer of '88 and hung out in AZ for a few days prior to their show. I remember coming home from school to find everyone jumping off the roof of my house into the pool. I traded Sammy an ugly ass Stussy shirt for a blue LS Project X shirt. On the way to their show, Ray told us a story about their equipment being stolen and how Caroline Records paid to replace it. He proceeded to lead the whole van into singing "Sweet Caroline" by Neil Diamond.

#3

We found out Pepperdine was coming to Tempe to play ASU in baseball. So we gathered up all the local SxE kids to go see Dubar pitch. We all X'd up like we were going to see some HC show. Dubar pitched a few innings and we were all screaming out Uniform Choice songs and some friendly straight edge heckling. It was a blast, but I think we may have embarrassed him a bit in front of his team. We tried to get a signed ball but he just laughed at us.

I get the impression you traveled a lot to Cali for shows - any good stories?

I saw a lot of great shows in LA: Uniform Choice, Insted, Doggy Style,Freewill, No For an Answer, Chain, Judge...

One of my first trips to LA was to stay with KevInsted. I got to record backup vocals for Bonds Of Friendship. To this day, Kev is the most genuine person I have ever met in HC. He introduced me to the John and Walt from Back To Back. We shared the same ideals and the same sense of humor about the scene. We became brother bands. We spent that summer traveling back and forth playing shows and each other's garages. We got into so much trouble.

I remember going with Kev to drop off artwork at Dubar's house. They had Wishing Well set up in the back of their parents home. I remember Pat opened this giant closet stacked full of every WW shirt. He just received a box of Break Down The Walls on blue and red wax and asked if I wanted one. I said I already had it on black so it was no big deal. Stupid.


Jason (with Insted shirt) climbing on top of the crowd for PX at GB reunion CBGB.

When did you leave Arizona? When in your eyes did that scene change? You are literally one of very few people from that scene to pretty much stay into hardcore, stay straight edge, come out to shows, and still stage dive and really be into it. How does that happen?

By the summer of '89 the AZ HC/SXE scene was in full bloom. I remember that was the year I stopped recognizing all the SXE kids. Most of all my friends had already left straight edge behind, only Palmer and I remained. There was a new, more serious breed of SXE now.

I left AZ in 1990 to attend art school in Atlanta. I turned all of my positive/DIY HC drive into school and finished a two-year advertising program in one year. I was one of the most recruited graduates in the school's history. I worked in Chicago for a year. I moved to NYC in '92. I started my own advertising agency in '96 and sold it 5 years later to a large holding company. I made more money that year than most people make in a lifetime. I am now married to the most amazing girl in the world. I have two beautiful kids. I still follow Hardcore religiously. And I'm still Straight Edge...

But I would trade it all for one more summer in '88.

Jimmy Yu - Part IV, The Beginning Of Judge

Jimmy Yu continues, this time we get into Judge. More still to come.

-DCXX

With Judge, the way I remember it is a little different. Maybe I'm wrong, I will have to ask Porcell about this. But I remember writing Judge songs with Mike before Judge. Mike had the ideas, and he would play them on drums. As I remember it, Youth Of Today was together. So Mike and I needed a drummer, and we needed a bassist, because I didn't want to play bass, I refused to play bass. The idea was for me to play guitar, but we couldn't find a bassist. We could, however, find Porcell, and he plays guitar! So I was like, "fuck, I'm down to playing bass again!" That's why those early songs had bass leads, because I played guitar! But those were edited out. Either Porcell or Jordan told me that. But I didn't even own a bass, I didn't even have a bass amp. I think Mike had a bass, or when we played out I borrowed one from another band. And that sucked because if I did that I couldn't really thrash out, because it's somebody else's bass and I have to give it back to them.

But the transition to Judge was a pretty natural thing from DBD, because we practiced at the same club, which was on the edge of the east village and Chinatown, this basement place. Porcell would remember the name. So it was practicing at the same place, just with a new band. And it wasn't like, "Oh my God we have this new band!" It was just like, "Ok, Judge, cool."

I think I was living in New York when the Judge seven inch was recorded. Honestly, I don't know why I didn't play on that. Mike and I wrote some of those songs. My memory is that Youth Of Today was happening and that was their main thing. I can't remember if this is while Mike was still in Youth Of Today or not. But the focus at the time was on Youth Of Today, not Judge. Judge was just a side project in its inception stages. So we had to circulate our players, especially with drummers you know? One time it was Luke, and then another time it was Drew. There were only a handful of people that played instruments.

Mike also wrote a lot, if not all of the music - at least that I remember. I don't know exactly what music Porcell listened to at that time. Mike and I though, we listened to the same music. So we had the same intuition as to what to write and what should happen within a song. So when playing live and practicing, we really both connected with that.


Judge Photo: Jeff Ladd

Mike even early on was listening to a lot of Neil Young, and absorbing those lyrics. I think that influence came out later. Mike's lyrics in Judge, I think they are deeper than a lot of lyrics. I mean, I don't want to compare bands and in any way make it seem like I am putting other bands down. But to me personally, I know why he wrote a lot of those lyrics, and what incidents happened that lead to those lyrics. So, it was very meaningful to us.

When the seven inch came out, and everyone got to see the lyrics, Mike's lyrics, that was the Mike that I knew. We were always angry. We grew up getting picked on, getting in fights. We saw a lot of shit. Our introduction to the New York hardcore scene was seeing Harley carrying around an eight ball in a sock, those were the surroundings, you know? We saw him use that. That can really do some serious damage…like, hospital damage. So we had that bottled up. Porcell…he was a peaceful guy. Straight edge, vegetarian. He was a different kind of straight edge in how he grew up. So naturally, I think Mike wrote the lyrics like he did. It wasn't forced. It wasn't an act.

So those lyrics, to me, it wasn't a shocker. He was writing songs about our lives. About the fights we got in, the friends that betrayed us, friends that died. There was a redhead skinhead kid, a great mosher, he was our friend, part of the New York Crew, even though he was from Connecticut. But he ran away from home, and came to New York. But someone pushed him off the train, and he died. Just so sad, some other gang did it. Our hearts went out to him.

You know, as skinheads, we weren't accepted by anyone. Anyone. Not by metalheads, regular gangs, other punks, Harley-Davidson gangs, nobody. And as far as other areas, other cities, we had friction. In New York, we had an edge to us. And we kept that up when it was kids from DC or kids from Boston that were around.

The lyrics to "New York Crew," people don't totally understand. We were from New Jersey but not that far outside of NYC, and we were in NYC every weekend and maybe one other day during the week. But people like Harley and everyone else, they were the ones that really lived there and hung out together all the time, nonstop. I mean, we were definitely there, but not like them. I mean, some of those guys, they were living in tiny apartments, like 6 skinheads in one apartment. We would come in and be there for an entire weekend straight, but it wasn't living the same way they were. But we still felt a part of it.

I will also say this, in response to what Harley said in the American Hardcore book, Harley hung out a lot with Eric. I'm sure he hung out with AF, but I'm not sure how much. He was kinda outside the immediate New York Crew. I think if you were to talk to Vinnie or Roger, they might give a better perspective of how much we were around. Because they were always around. So on one hand, I see what Harley was saying, because we weren't there 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. But at the same time, Harley himself was kind of a loner and even kind of outside of the New York skinheads. I mean, he hung out and was a real part of it, no question, but he had his own stuff going on too, so he wasn't always right there.

In the beginning of us going to shows, we weren't really tight with AF. But by the time DBD got going, they really took care of us. So we were much tighter with AF than any other band, they were the band we tagged along with. Harley was more just into moshing with Eric. Maybe my timeline is off, but I don't remember the Cro-Mags happening a lot at that time, and with DBD we didn't tag along with them like we did with AF.

As far as the terms "Wolfpack" and "United Blood," those weren't like actual crews and it wasn't how we identified ourselves, at least I don't think so. Those were just names that Mike gave us looking back when he wrote the Judge lyrics. I don't remember it being verbalized at the time, like, "Hey, we are the Wolfpack!" But we felt it in our hearts, and those descriptions when applied later by Mike made sense. Because at the time, in those threshold moments, like when Boston came down, and it escalated into becoming physical, in New York it didn't matter if you were a regular skin, a nazi skin, or what…you just kicked their fucking asses. That's it. You were New York. And in those moments, it was very clear that you stuck together, everyone. We are New York, and you…you are not. You want to try to rule the floor and try to crack people's heads? Dude, you're in the wrong place, man. We just jumped them. In those moments, we were united.

Those are my memories. It is a lot like how things were with me and my brother Steve – we would fight all the time amongst ourselves. But if someone messed with him or messed with me, we were right there for each other, because above all else, we were brothers. Maybe we fought with each other, but when it was someone else, it was a different story. And when Mike wrote "New York Crew," he's not talking about a straight edge crew. There was not a definitive crew, it was just everyone that hung out and stuck together in the moments when we were threatened. I think that song and the image and story in that song is about the moments when everyone in the New York scene, everyone, was united. Not just like the five of us and our little crew. It's about the moments when all of us felt that – when our backs were to the wall, when we had to fight, when we lost a brother.


Judge Photo: Jeff Ladd

I'll tell you this, all the skinheads were scared as hell to go to Tompkins Square back then. When we got out of A7, we didn't even walk through that shit. We took the long way. Forget about going through there for the shortcut. Today it is so preppy and safe, but back then, there was some real shit happening in there at night, and we were kids. Knives, guns, drugs, people shooting up…in the dark. We didn't go in there. But it was a part of our reality, that danger. In "New York Crew" Mike mentions that, because that was a fragment of our past culture. I don't think when he references that he means we were hanging out in it and fighting. I think he meant we were hanging out on the edge of it, outside A7, aware of the danger in the Park. I mean, we never went beyond Avenue B.

I think the song "New York Crew" ended up having a life of its own. I think it played on people's ideas and images in a way we didn't expect it to. So, people took it how they wanted to take it. And then you had kids from a totally different time and place singing it – young kids from Connecticut singing it, or kids all over the country. And that was weird, but it was fun. It showed that years later, kids were identifying with us and enjoyed our music. With DBD, we didn't have that many people singing along to our lyrics, and Mark was wild. But Judge, Mike had a different presence, and Mike just hunched over the crowd, this immovable force, this presence. And around him you had all these kids singing along. We saw that people enjoyed it, and we enjoyed it. Never would Mike and I say, "Man, look at these kids, they weren't there, why are they singing along?" No. We appreciated it, it meant something…it meant the world to us.

Coming Soon: The Photography Of Dave Sine

Youth Of Today at Fenders Ballroom, Long Beach CA.  August 1989, The Last Show

Circle Jerks at The Stardust Ballroom, April 20th 1984

I decided to take a break from all the interviews and text heavy content to give you this. Great band, incredible quality video, very few views. I couldn't resist. Runnin', Runnin'... -Tim DCXX

Jason Peterson - Arizona Straight Edge

Youth Under Control, Photo courtesy of : Jason XXX

Jason Peterson played guitar in Youth Under Control and Wind Of Change, bands best known for putting the Arizona straight edge scene on the map in the late eighties. He also was the one behind the classic Step Forward artwork, perhaps his first creative graphic endeavor that would end up leading to some very, very major work in the advertising world.

Perhaps one of the most financially successful people to come out of the hardcore scene, it's worth noting that twenty years later, Jason is still straight edge and even gets to wear a Schism shirt to work while designing a new worldwide Coke print campaign. We asked him for some memories and he delivered, this is part one.

-Gordo DCXX

When did a straight edge scene in Arizona develop and how?

I am originally from the east side of Cleveland, Ohio. When I was eight years old my parents split up. My mother went to work and left my older brothers and sisters raise me. My oldest stepbrother was into punk rock since the late 70s. He saw the Sex Pistols play back in the day. When I was 12 he started feeding me Black Flag, Minor Threat, GBH, etc. He used to shove socks in my mouth for listening to Adam and the Ants.

My first shows in '83 and '84 were Black Flag, Suicidal Tendencies, Dead Kennedys, Husker Du, Necros, and lots of local Clevo stuff. I was hooked. I studied every band, every fanzine and I would try to see every show. I started writing reviews for MRR and Alterative Press (a local Clevo zine at the time), as well as designing layouts for zines of friends. I started drinking and smoking pot at 13. I thought it was the punk rock thing to do. I was hanging out with a much older crowd. I used to get drunk before junior high school.

I remember sitting on the floor in my room studying the covers of Kids Will Have Their Say/SSD and Brotherhood/DYS while listening to The Crew/7 Seconds, which had just been released. I was reading the lyric sheet over and over. It felt like something bigger than just the music. They weren't being ironic like the Dead Kennedys when they sang "kill the poor." The positive message hit me hard. At that point I knew I would go nowhere if I continued down the path I was going. My small group of friends and I all went straight edge, a few of them would eventually go on to form Confront.

In the summer of '85 my stepfather was transferred to work in Phoenix. This was a new beginning for me. Straight Edge made so much sense to me, I have never considered another way to live my life. One of the first people I met in Arizona was this skater kid with dyed jet-black hair named James Palmer. We met at an outdoor JFA/Necros show. The show started at noon in the 110-degree Arizona summer. Palmer came from a very similar broken home. His parents ran a local bar so he saw first hand how fucked up booze could be. We were the only two kids at that show with X's on our hands so we naturally clicked.

The older west side guys like JFA, Mighty Sphincter and Junior Achievement established the Arizona HC scene. It was an awesome mix of dusty skaters, cow punks and Goth kids in creepers. They were always drugged out and sunburned. They were the furthest things from straight edge. "Beach Blanket Bong-Out" was not just a song; it was a way of life. Those shows were so much fun. Looking back, I think the diversity is the reason I was always open to everyone in the HC scene. It wasn't until a few years later that the proper Arizona straight edge scene developed.

Youth Under Control, Photo courtesy of: Jason XXX

Run us through the evolution of your bands - Youth Under Control and Wind Of Change. Releases, various shows, etc.

Palmer and I started Youth Under Control in '85. We went through a load of different line ups in the beginning. We wanted a straight edge band in the vein of DYS/SSD. I think we printed shirts before we even had our first practice. Our description of a "tour" was pushing our amps in shopping carts and playing in our parents' garages. We struggled to find like-minded straight edge kids to be in the band. We tried to convince local skater kids to become straight edge but it never worked. I was always the SXE salesman but quickly learned that if you don't deeply believe you will not last.

We finally got it together in the spring of '86. The line up was Jim Wall, Palmer, Eric Astor and myself. We recorded a demo and opened up every show that would have us. We played with Justice League, 7 Seconds, Bl'ast!, Youth Of Today and every local band in the Phoenix area. I remember we somehow got booked on a show in Toronto with Youth of Today and 7 Seconds, we plotted every plan in the world to get there, but in the end couldn't pull it off.

Astor and Palmer left in '87 to play in Last Option. Al-X Dunham and Brian Fuller filled their spots. That summer, we played our only out of state show in LA with Insted, Underdog and Ill Repute. Youth Under Control ended up playing around 45 shows with the last show in a flower shop in downtown Tempe.

Wind Of Change started the very next day...

(TO BE CONTINUED)

WARZONE "Lower East Side Crew" Revelation:1

Warzone Photo: Tsetseflynyhc

Sometime during the fall of 2003 I hooked up with Cappo and spent a few days in NYC helping him film and interview for a NYHC documentary that he was planning on doing. Among the many people that we met up and interviewed, was Duane from Some Records. Duane came to Ray's mothers house for the interview and brought along with him a large box that was stacked to the top with old NYHC demos and flyers. A large portion of the flyers were doubles that Duane had, so he left them for Ray. Ray in turn gave them to me.

Among this large collection of flyers was this great 11x17 poster / ad for Revelation's first release, the Warzone -"Lower East Side Crew" 7". Not only cool because it's the Warzone 7" and Revelation's first release, but interesting to read the "Coming Soon" releases. New York City Straight Edge Compilation 7" with: Youth Of Today, Warzone, Bold and Straight Ahead. Plus an Insted 7" and a Bold 7" on the way. Definitely could have been interesting. -Tim DCXX

Jimmy Yu - Part III

Here is the third installment of our interview with Jimmy Yu.

One thing we forgot to point out is that the day before we did this interview, Jimmy drove out to Montville where Mike still lives and just randomly showed up at his house. He had not seen Mike since leaving Judge in early 1989. Mike was having a family BBQ but he and Jimmy got to talk for a little bit. Jimmy goes into this later on in the interview, but just figured we'd bring it up since Jimmy references it here.

-DCXX

SSD, Minor Threat…the straight edge bands from then, we listened to their music, but slowly it got deeper than that. You see, a lot of those early hardcore bands, their lyrics were good, and I hate to say this…but they were just similar to other normal punk bands that were writing songs. So, these straight edge bands were so much different from what we had been hearing, because they had a deeper message, at least to us. It attracted us, and it meant something more. And when we really started listening to this, we started putting Xs on our hands, because you know, that's what you saw on the cover of their albums! And gradually, we just went in that direction.

But people in New York, Vinnie for instance, I remember him being like "what the hell is that on your hand?" Because prior to that, Mike and I definitely were not straight edge, we were pretty crazy, and we hung out with those guys. Drug and drink wise, you name it, we probably did it. Vinnie and everyone else had been there with us doing it. With the exception of shooting up, we did everything, it was fair game. But shooting up, we at least had enough common sense to not do that. Because we knew that doing that you would just get addicted, and you're fucked, you're done.

Still though, Agnostic Front was really a big influence on us and on us deciding to do DBD. They were always playing. At CB's, there would be an 8 band matinee, and they would always be one of them. Because you know, each song was like two seconds long! Vinnie was not like a master guitarist, but he was a good rhythm guitarist, he was hard and he played it like that, you know? We always went to see them. So once we had the idea to do a band, we had our spot. We knew where we would be going, who we would try to tag along with. We had found our scene.

So, Mike bought a drum set. He just picked it up and started playing, Mike was very talented. And I had always played guitar, even before punk, I bought my first guitar. I would play AC/DC and pretend I was Angus Young. Eddie Van Halen? Nah, too hard to emulate, I can't play that. But AC/DC, yeah. So it was natural, "let's start a band!" But my brother also played guitar and he wanted to be the guitar player, and of course he is just as tight with Mike, it's the three of us always going to shows. And he was older than Mike, he was driving before Mike. But he said he was playing guitar, case closed. So then it was like, "ok, you play guitar, and I will play bass." My brother used to beat me up all the time, so whatever he says, I'm just like, "Ok, fine, I guess I'm playing bass."

So the three of us started going up to Mike's house, either his room or his garage, and started figuring out songs. And Mike is a very smart guy. Maybe people don't give him enough credit. I don't mean like a scheming type of smart. I mean he was a very thoughtful person, kinda quiet. His brother also beat him up all the time, I guess we had that connection as well – even though Steve was cool and Mike's friend too. But Mike's older brother was a lot older, much older, and definitely not into punk. He was like a redneck cowboy, he rode a horse and shit. And he hated the whole punk thing and would come down on Mike about it. So Mike had that coming at him at home, as well as at school. Later on he would pour out his own feelings in his lyrics in his own way, and it was very smart. It just came out in such a great, heavy way. But yeah, we just started playing, DBD was on it's way. We didn't have a name yet, but I'll get to that.

I don't know how we met him exactly, but we met Mark Ryan from shows long before DBD. He was in New Jersey too, and we got to know him real well. He was into hip-hop even back then, even when we were skinheads. I think he liked the energy of it. We were all just kids that were looking for something. He would joke around and act like he was a hip-hop dude, he would talk like them, like the whole, "Yo B what up yo?" He was totally white, but he would talk like he was black you know? But he was a mosher too! It was like how the Beastie Boys were. We were friends with, and they turned the same way. They had a total hardcore edge at first, then they disappeared for like a year or two, and then out of nowhere they are opening up for Madonna at Madison Square Garden! Like, that was just crazy. We were like, "what the fuck was that!? How did they go from CB's to Madison Square Garden?" I don't know what their connection was, but they did it.

Jimmy busting some chords, he still plays guitar and has about 8 Kramers and Charvels, mostly white with tremolos. No joke, he can really shred. Photo: Tim DCXX

And talking about Mark, this reminds me, there was a real gray area between straight edge kids, hardcore kids, punks, Hare Krishnas, and hip hop kids in NYC. It could all blur together, and it did. Especially hip-hop, it really came from the streets, and it had that element of violence. So, these boundaries were really blurred. It wasn't like, "Ok, you are a rapper, and you are a straight edge kid, and you are a hardcore kid," it wasn't so strict and defined. So, Mark, he listened to that stuff, and he liked the violence and the reality of it. We can't project back our current situation to what was happening then. Back then, it was like, "Hey, are you a little crazy? Cool, then you are one of us!"

For Mike and me it was a little difficult, because in Jersey, that boundary was pretty fuckin' clear. You were either a jock, or an outcast, or a rapper…well actually, no, because there was only like one black kid in Montville. And I'm going to his wedding next month! But in NYC, around the street kids, that boundary was just really gray. And that was the thing with Mark – so for him to go that route, it was cool and natural. I'm not even sure if he moved to the city, but if he did, then those boundaries were gone, for sure. And back then, if you were white and listened to rap, that was fuckin' rare.

Similarly, it was just like us listening to Metallica before the Kill 'Em All record came out. We saw their show, and they were throwing out their demo of the record before it came out. Somehow Mike got a copy of it, and he played it for us in his car in our high school parking lot. So he says, "Jimmy, listen to this shit." We were blown away, like, "what the hell is that?!" And he says, that's called "double bass drum." To us it was like hardcore just gone crazy. We had never thought about something like that in hardcore. It was like hardcore kids playing this music, except they had long hair and were more talented. That was great! And we just absorbed that too. And I think some of that came out later in Judge. I mean you can't really see that many traces of it, but it was in Mike's head, and mine too.

I remember listening to the song "Fade To Black" over and over and over. The way James Hetfield characterized dying, that song just spoke to me so much, because I didn't think I was gonna live past 20, and it summed up how I felt. I mean it was just so crazy, before finding straight edge, there was just no hope. After that we found some meaning to life and something to stand behind. But before that, it was very grim. As a drummer, Mike really loved that stuff. To him, it was an invention, with that speed and that energy. We really just absorbed it. Even the "chugga chugga chugga" crunching in Judge, that was Metallica. Cro-Mags, they absorbed it too. And they were more metal. Judge was more straight edge and straight forward hardcore, but the traces were there.

But like I was saying with the boundaries not being so clear, back then that's just how it was, and I think maybe that's how it was even for the guys in Metallica in California, I don't know what was in their heads. Maybe they were into punk? Where did they get the idea to play so fast? Misfits? So you know they were drawing inspiration for their art from all sorts of places.

But anyways, DBD, we would drive to Nutley, pick Mark up, and go back to Mike's and rehearse, or go straight into the city and practice at a studio. Mike always paid. His family was upper middle class, their farm was a big animal farm, and they did well. They sold horses, everything. So Mike actually had money. He took care of all of us. If we needed help or needed something, he's the man. He worked hard for the family on the farm. But Mike always did it all when it came to paying for things with DBD, we tried to chip in some but it was mostly Mike.

Mike and I wrote the music for DBD, and Steve came up with some too. Then we would present the music to Mark. Mark would send us lyrics, Mike would look at it, and then we would come up with the music. Or sometimes we had the music, and we would see how Mark would want to sing to it. It was pretty free flowing. Mike even contributed to writing some of the lyrics in DBD, but it was mostly Mark. But that shows you, Mike was already starting.

We didn't have a band name right away. And the other thing is that back then, Mike was just Mike, he wasn't "Mike Judge." But Stigma way back used to always come up with names for us. All sorts of crazy shit. Before we even had a name for DBD, we had songs and would play, but we didn't have a name, and Stigma would try to come up with names for us. One time he was like, "Yo, you guys all have shaved heads. So how about calling your band 'Chemotherapy'?" We were like, "Umm, NO!" Or he would say, "you guys are from Jersey, so how about the Jersey Moshers?" Again, we were like, "NO."

Actually just yesterday, Mike and I were talking about this. I remember driving Mike's car in Montville, getting gas at this gas station in Pine Brook. A biker pulled up and was getting gas. As he is doing that, we were sitting in the car, and we are trying to figure out names. One of us looked over at the biker, and we saw he had a tattoo that said "Death Before Dishonor." Right then, one of us said, "that's it, Death Before Dishonor, that's the band name." That's how I remember that.

We played out a decent amount, but I don't know why we never had a legitimate recording. We had a full set of songs, but there was never a formal demo. We taped everything, every rehearsal was a supposed "demo." But we were really poor, so the money we did spend went towards studio time in the city. I think we may have thought that eventually the "demo" would become a record. Back then though, to make a record was not that easy, it was a big deal to even do a 45. It would cost a lot of money, and you would have to find a guy to product it and mix it. It was a little beyond us. When DBD was around, Agnostic Front, who was a big band, they only had an EP, and that was a big deal. Later on they came out with their LP, and that was a very, very big deal. By the time Judge came around, bands could put out their own records and everything, but a few years earlier in DBD, it was a different time.

We saw every hardcore band that played in New York City, or at least we tried to. And DBD played with a lot of bands. We played with Youth Of Today and we were big fans, so we knew Youth Of Today before Mike ever played drums for them. Cappo had a presence. Maybe not like HR, but he could certainly hold a crowd. We were definitely into them. So we all started hanging out. They lived far from us, but anytime they came to the city, we hung out. At some point they got Mike to play drums. DBD kinda fell apart. Mark formed Supertouch, we weren't involved in that.

Mike and I, we did a new band. And of course, that band was Judge…

TO BE CONTINUED